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	<title>dechurched.com &#187; thinking</title>
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		<title>Truth versus Logic</title>
		<link>http://dechurched.com/bible/truth-versus-logic</link>
		<comments>http://dechurched.com/bible/truth-versus-logic#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 11:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[<p>Don’t confuse truth with logic 
Recently I debated some theological issues online. I ought to know better. As if anyone else would be persuaded by my logic. And as if anyone could persuade a bigot like me with theirs. I reflected on the process somewhat though. I came to the earth shaking conclusion that very few <span style="color:#777"> . . . &#8594; Read More: <a href="http://dechurched.com/bible/truth-versus-logic">Truth versus Logic</a></span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-size: large; font-family: Verdana;">Don’t confuse truth with logic <span style="font-size: medium; font-family: Verdana;"><br />
Recently I debated some theological issues online. I ought to know better. As if anyone else would be persuaded by my logic. And as if anyone could persuade a bigot like me with theirs. I reflected on the process somewhat though. I came to the earth shaking conclusion that very few people would ever be persuaded to abandon long held beliefs via the written word.
<p>I recall a lesson I learnt when I was at University. The Biblical Creationist movement had just started. We Christians were eager to hear from our new found heroes who could argue for a non-Darwinian world. Well, one of these characters turned up. (from the good old U.S. of A of course.) A lecture was arranged. Following his speech, he graciously fielded questions. Hardbitten biology and zoology professors were sprinkled through the audience waiting for this moment. Forty minutes of high level academic debate followed between them and the Christian professor at the front. He handled all the questions skillfully. So well in fact that I was undecided as to who won. In fact the only conclusion I could come to was that I would never know as much about this topic as either side. Therefore I could never claim I knew enough to prove either Scientific creationism (Yes, I believe that is its name), or Darwinian evolution on the basis of knowledge. I would have to decide this issue, like many others, by some other framework. 
<p>I would have to decide via a belief. Or an agenda.  
<p>Hang on… maybe a belief is an agenda.  
<p>I began to wonder how many of my views and beliefs were just like that. They were decided on the basis of something other than objective knowledge. And if they weren&#8217;t formed by knowledge, they must have been formed from some emotive or belief aspect. Now I try and figure things out by logic, don’t get me wrong. But if I dig deep enough, I realise there is more than logic behind my worldviews. It is like my heart decides things, not my mind. But after my heart has decided, then wow, my brain invents all sorts of explanations and reasons. I then tell myself that I believe such and such a thing because it is logical.  
<p>This has had an alarming impact on me. First of all, when someone else tells me they believe in something because it is logical, I challenge them. I don’t believe them. Let me give you an example. I have an old friend who is an atheist. So I climb into him now and then along the lines of his belief in the non-existence of God. (This is a mathematical argument demonstrating the difficulty of atheism) But my old buddy won&#8217;t go there. He deflects, laughs, asks for another drink, all sorts of ploys. Rather than face the question. He is like me. He has decided his belief, he claims it is logical, and he is not about to waste time thinking on something that might unravel himself.  
<p>Now, before you think I am telling you how foolish atheists are (which might be true), I am not going down that alley. In fact I suggest Christians are just the same. They have chosen their beliefs, and they have constructed logical arguments to prop them up. Hundreds of years of &#8216;proofs&#8217; have emerged as people &#8216;defend the faith.&#8217;  
<p>
Which brings me to my second point. Us defenders of the faith can point out all sorts of illogic, or non-logic, in atheistic or Hindu or Buddhist arguments. We even have something called apologetics taught at Bible colleges, which is the means of debating your Christian belief using logic. However, I have also come to the conclusion that once you have decided on a belief, your powers of logic are committed to upholding that belief. 
<p>
Take this one for example. Here are two statements. Christians are divided on these. Many believe these statements are logically consistent. In other words, there is no contradiction in holding both to be true. Other Christians believe they are very contradictory and cannot both be true;
<ol>
<li>The Christian God is a God of love.
<li>The Christian God will pitch most humans into an eternity of hell.</ol>
<p>Bible college professors write forty two page articles explaining in a philosophic sense why these two statements are not contradictory. In order to reconcile these two beliefs, they have developed a series of logical arguments. 
<p>Other professors write smaller documents explaining how they are illogical. (It is somewhat easier to argue that) My particular opinion here is irrelevant. (but <a href="http://dechurched.com/bible/bible_topic">here</a> it is, if you must know) All I am trying to say is that logic is not universal, even within the confines of the Christian camp. Different people can believe direct opposites, and each claim logic. Moreover both sides can point to the Bible to back up their proof statements. Well, I reckon it is nothing to do with logic. They have made certain heart based decisions, and the rest flows from that.
<p>Let us move onto point number three. My recent internet debates got me into more hot water because I had not read something one of my correspondents pointed me to. I had to admit that to him. So I went and read his piece right through. After doing so, I asked whether he had read the item I pointed him at. He ignored that question, meaning he hadn’t. He was not in the frame of mind to consider my viewpoint, that was pretty clear. I was the one with the problem, and he felt I could clear up my mistaken theology by reading this thing and that thing. He was not going to waste time reading up on something he had already decided against.  
<p>So I broke off. I knew we were getting nowhere. I turned into the nice guy again, asking about his family, where he lived, the Dale Carnegie stuff.  
<p>If you go into a Christian bookstore you can find all sorts of arguments proving this and that. I even found a book that was a story about a group of philosophers who had gotten together in a house debate various far reaching issues. Naturally the Christian guy was the most gracious, and eventually everyone listened to him and started asking him questions. Good, relevant questions by the way. And he answered them using all his powers of logic and reasoning. And of course many of those present were persuaded by him.  
<p>Well, I tell you, the author was darned lucky. Gee, I never get to present my full logical grounding of why the world needs to believe in Jesus Christ. I generally spend my time questioning the other guy, if I get so far as to have a genuine conversation. And by the time he is done, and I have learnt a bit more about Buddhism or Neo Marxism or Zen surfing or Aromatherapy 101 or yet another inner way somewhere… then time is up. And he&#8217;s gone. Missed my chance to clock him over the ear with the gospel again.  
<p>Anyway this book is sold in Christian bookshops. To Christians. Non-believers won&#8217;t buy that book. Christians buy it to learn the arguments so they can go out and defend their beliefs. (probably against people who aren’t interested.) Hey now, that&#8217;s not unusual. Logical books on atheism are sold in atheistic type bookstores. Christians don’t buy them. Oh no. Sometimes atheists buy them. But mostly they are purchased by students doing a course somewhere. Since atheists don’t score points from converting others to their thinking, they are not as evangelistic as us. But that’s not the point. People will not spend money on a book informing them why another belief is logical. All such books, whether &#8216;proving&#8217; Christian, Marxist, Hindu, Bahai, Islamic or animist thought is logical are produced for their own followers. As for those books &#8216;proving&#8217; another faith is illogical &#8211; guess what? They are produced for the authors home faith group. This is not rocket science. 
<p>But despite this well accepted truth, Christian logic, (and illogic much of the time), is poured out everywhere. In bookstores, in libraries, on the Internet, in tracts, out of Discipleship training courses, from lecture circuit jokers, magazines, Television, you name it. It is done for us believers. Not to convert anyone. Just like the Bible. Thought I would throw that one in. The Bible was not written to non-Christians. Just check up a few introductions in Paul&#8217;s letters. They were written to believers. Okay, now lets draw it all together. Here is the summation. Our heart makes the choices, and our mind falls into line justifying them.
<p>Sometimes what we think is logical is really illogical to someone else.
<p>People do not invest in hearing the logic of other beliefs, just their own.
<p>What would happen if Christians actually did listen to the beliefs of others? If they were as fair to them as they themselves demand? What if they tried to understand the others point of logic, or viewpoint on how the universe hangs together?
<p>I reckon they might see their own claims to logic, or consistency, are just as full of holes as anyone else&#8217;s. Now does this worry me personally? Not a bit. I don’t need to believe in logical constructs anymore. I believe in Jesus. You see I don’t think God sent a manifesto. He didn’t send a theory, or a manual. He didn’t even necessarily send a logically consistent answer. Gods definition of truth is not a series of straightforward mathematically correct debates. It is not a set of four spiritual laws. God&#8217;s definition of truth is Jesus Christ. He sent a man. Gods solution, if you want to use that marketing term, was a person. Flesh, blood, soul, spirit, love, charity, hope and more. Much more than your or my definition of logical thought.
<p>So don’t confuse truth with logic. Your heart decides things. Your brain is a supporting act. Truth and lies are found in your heart. Why do you think the Bible mentions it all the time?</p>
<p></span></p>
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		<title>Wisdom is a woman</title>
		<link>http://dechurched.com/bible/wisdom</link>
		<comments>http://dechurched.com/bible/wisdom#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 11:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[<p>There is a section of the Bible called the books of Wisdom. Right in the middle. The books of Wisdom are the books of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and The Song of Songs. Most Christians only read Psalms and Proverbs. Occasionally Job, rarely Ecclesiastes, and never the Song of Songs. The Song of Songs is a <span style="color:#777"> . . . &#8594; Read More: <a href="http://dechurched.com/bible/wisdom">Wisdom is a woman</a></span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-size: medium;">There is a section of the Bible called the books of Wisdom. Right in the middle. The books of Wisdom are the books of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and The Song of Songs. Most Christians only read Psalms and Proverbs. Occasionally Job, rarely Ecclesiastes, and never the Song of Songs. The Song of Songs is a love story, gets a bit steamy here and there. Ecclesiastes, well people wonder how it sneaked into the holy writ because it seems so gloomy. And Job is the story of how this previously lucky guy gets nailed by the devil, and never finds out why.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Wisdom. If you want to find out early about Wisdom, start with Proverbs. You discover some interesting things. Firstly, Wisdom is a woman. Honest to goodness. Always referred to as a She. Secondly, she is in the most obvious places. She stands at the traffic lights, at the entrance to the city by the freeway exits. She shouts as everyone walks busily by.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">And hardly anyone sees her.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Nobody wants to listen to her. She promises long life, happiness, wealth, contentment, but very few even see she is there yelling out the answers to them in such an obvious manner. Wonderful picture. The book of Proverbs goes on about this for some time. You think people would get the picture, wouldn’t you?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Armed with this knowledge, the same people then turn to Ecclesiastes. And they declare the book gloomy, and not helpful. Then they read Job, and can&#8217;t understand it, or think that God is the bad guy. For crying out aloud, they only just read five minutes ago that Wisdom was not going to be seen easily.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">So help me, it took reading a book written by a non-Christian to point out something I had never seen before. The Bible is a book about God&#8217;s dealing with the world, among other things, right? Well, the longest conversation attributable to God is in the book of Job. The preachers never pointed it out to me. How come? Simple. Wisdom is standing there, really obviously, but who wants to see her?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">This dialogue spoken by God in the book of Job, well at first sight, it looks like God goes on about crocodiles and hippos a tad too long. Fancy God himself wasting his big chance talking about crocs?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Give me strength. If there is a God out there, and this Bible is his message to mankind, do people think He is dumb enough to talk at length this once, and then squander it on a wildlife program? Maybe the message is hidden, deliberately so because Wisdom warned us it would be hidden. Some no-brainers here aren&#8217;t there?</p>
<p>Anyway I am just as bad because I didn’t see any of that until this writer pointed it all out to me. His interpretation was great. And if you think I am about to do a precis of it here, you are mistaken.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Ah, well, I can&#8217;t resist having a crack.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">The clue is to think of Leviathan, the big crocodile, as the Devil himself. If God created good and evil, then in the book of Job, he admits that it was a tough call making the universe, and running it. Evil is allowed it&#8217;s run, for reasons we don&#8217;t understand. Good grief, we can hardly see the beginning of the Milky Way, this small time galaxy we are part of. How could we really appreciate good or evil? If there is a God, and if he created the universe, and if he allowed good and bad, could we understand his purposes? Or even the difficulty of setting it all up in the first place?<br />
 <br />
Ecclesiastes is my favourite. Talks a lot about timing. There is the famous passage, immortalized by the music of Peter, Paul and Mary long ago. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: small;">There is a time for everything,<br />
and a season for every activity under heaven:<br />
a time to be born and a time to die,<br />
a time to plant and a time to uproot,<br />
a time to kill and a time to heal,<br />
a time to tear down and a time to build,<br />
a time to weep and a time to laugh,<br />
a time to mourn and a time to dance,<br />
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,<br />
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,<br />
a time to search and a time to give up,<br />
a time to keep and a time to throw away,<br />
a time to tear and a time to mend,<br />
a time to be silent and a time to speak,<br />
a time to love and a time to hate,<br />
a time for war and a time for peace.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">I once worked for a stupid boss. Gee, welcome to the world, you are thinking. Sure. Well, I never knew what sort of mood this overseer would be in, when I phoned him on the other side of the world. He would pour his venom about life down the phone to me, at expensive cellphone rates that he would later pay for.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">But I had learnt my verses from Ecclesiastes. Here they are;</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: small;">Do not be a hurry to leave him. Do not join in an evil matter, for he will do whatever he pleases. Since the word of the Boss is authoritative, who will say to him, &#8220;What are you doing?&#8221;</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: small;">He who keeps the Bosses command experiences no trouble for a wise heart knows the proper time and procedure. For there is a proper time and procedure for every delight, when a man&#8217;s trouble is heavy upon him.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">I know, I changed the word &#8216;King&#8217; to &#8216;Boss.&#8217; But my point is, I learnt to shut up and let him get his anger out of the way. Eventually he would realise he had been monologuing all this time, and he would ask, &#8220;Oh, how is so and so going?&#8221;</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">And then I had my moment to bring out what was really troubling the huge project we were working on for him. If I had done it earlier I would have been crushed. He taught me how to use time.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">If you want to, you can see how simple rules of timing work. Like speaking last if you want to succeed. Have you ever seen others influence business decision meetings, even though their ideas are not that good? Somehow they know how to wait for the right moment. You might have had a better solution, but theirs prevailed because your timing in presenting yours was wrong. You can even get to the point where you are questioning the others in the decision making group about their ideas, quizzing them until they betray the flaws in their own thinking, all the while knowing you have a solution. Then silence starts to descend on the meeting. You casually mention your idea. As an option to consider. Your chances of acceptance are close to total.</p>
<p>We can learn wisdom. We can learn that people want to be heard before they will hear you. Some people know it intuitively. They are the nice guys of the world. Often they are not that smart, but wow, are they nice. They get their way because of their niceness. The world opens up to them. Don’t despise them for this. Follow them around instead. Observe how they greet people, laugh at their jokes, remember their wife is having surgery next week and ask how the kids examinations went.</p>
<p>Took me decades to see it. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Sorry, not it. Her. Wisdom. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">And you know what? I&#8217;m still not wise. Wisdom, this wonderful wild, unpredictable woman, is out there. Externally. Just that sometimes I can see her and listen to her. And other times I completely forget she exists.<br />
 <br />
So in your next business meeting, lean back in your chair, and look around the room. Imagine Wisdom is sitting there, smiling at you.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">She has always been there. She was at the freeway entrance this morning when you started to get hassled with the traffic. But you didn’t recognize her then. Then she was in the gas station as the friendly attendant came up. You wondered briefly how that attendant could be consistently happy with all these busy passing motorists. Fleetingly Wisdom flashed in and out of your sight.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">And now you sit together with her watching the group dynamics of your workaday world unfold in front of you. </span></p>
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		<title>Serious</title>
		<link>http://dechurched.com/winds</link>
		<comments>http://dechurched.com/winds#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 05:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes you can&#8217;t laugh. Grief appears. Or sadness. Strangely, the right sadness, at the right time, in the right place, is not depressing. It is not fun, or enjoyable, or uplifting. But it can be moving.
<p>We human beings are an unusual lot, and generally contradictory. If someone claims they are not emotional, you can bet they <span style="color:#777"> . . . &#8594; Read More: <a href="http://dechurched.com/winds">Serious</a></span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: Verdana;">Sometimes you can&#8217;t laugh. Grief appears. Or sadness. Strangely, the right sadness, at the right time, in the right place, is not depressing. It is not fun, or enjoyable, or uplifting. But it can be moving.
<p>We human beings are an unusual lot, and generally contradictory. If someone claims they are not emotional, you can bet they repress it. If one claims not to be a social game player, then watch who they gravitate near at a celebrity gathering.
<p>So while we have &#8216;humour&#8217; and &#8217;serious&#8217; pages here, it was, in some ways an arbitrary division. Some pages could appear under either label.
<p>Get back to us if you think I should swap any around.</p>
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