I love seeing these books in Christian bookshops that have titles like ‘Issues confronting modern Christians – tackled head on.’ Or ‘Topics most Christians are afraid to face.’
I pick them up eagerly expecting to read something radical in them. But a quick look inside usually reveals yet another look at homosexuality, or sex before marriage, or how modern morality is going downhill.
Instead I want to introduce the topic you can’t discuss freely in your house group or church. One that I have never found in one of these ‘radical books.’ Most times I bring this subject up, I encounter either anger, or that odd look telling me they don’t know what to say, but will certainly warn others, or at best, sympathy for me. But no more discussion. Generally I find evasion. Evasion of any willingness to even look at it, or talk about it.
So I am intrigued. In fact I enjoy the topic, and would love people to talk it through with me. But it doesn’t happen. Much of my interest is of course, based around the fact I find so few who will go through it with me, I confess that. This alone tells me there has to be something in it. It is an elephant standing in the room.
By now you’ve waited long enough for the topic to be introduced. However I had to do all the preamble. If I introduced it up front, you might have stopped reading.
And written me off.
I even wrote that line deliberately. ‘And written me off.’ I don’t mind being written off actually. You see, the topic is not my idea. No, indeed. I only got interested in it by chance. I stumbled on it, and would have dismissed it immediately had I not seen the impressive number of theologians and others through the centuries who stand behind it. So, doesn’t bother me if you write me off. But remember you are also dismissing the likes of Benjamin Franklin, Immanuel Kant, Thomas Jefferson, William Barclay, Karl Barth, Thomas Paine, Robert Burns, Samuel Coleridge, Charles Dickens, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, John Milton, Alexander Graham Bell, Florence Nightingale, Isaac Newton, and Jacques Ellul, to name but a few. There are also oodles of web sites devoted to it.
Okay, enough, here is the topic. Purposefully buried in the middle of this paragraph in case you had skimmed. It is universal salvation. When Christians first hear this phrase, warning lights go on, as they now have with you. Let’s do the definition first. Universal salvation does not claim all religions lead to God. Not on your Nelly. That is a belief called Universalism. It sounds the same, but is vastly different. Universal salvation claims that each and every person ever to live, will be saved by the love of God displayed through Jesus Christ. In other words that Jesus Christ will ultimately save every single human being.
Let’s get pedantic now and really turn you off. Universal salvation obviously claims that no human beings end up in hell. First thing we are going to look at it are some Bible passages by the way. Just a few. I have highlighted words such as every and all.
- Isaiah 45:22-23 “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
- John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”
- Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
- 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
- 1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.
- 1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Takes a long time to see those words, all and every. It might take you decades, because nobody preaches them. But they are there. They are scattered throughout the Bible in reference to the saving grace of Jesus. Go check for yourself.
To get back to my original point, I am merely saying you wont be able to discuss this issue. An indepth look at it will be too difficult for your Pastor or home group to handle.
Now there are some other factors to consider while we are here. Ramifications. If you think people are heading towards hell, then there are some awful particulars you have to live with. Let us say you are thinking of telling your neighbour about the saving power of Jesus, and you arrange to see him on Saturday. But, come Saturday, turns out your son gets a place in the top football team, and you go to watch him play instead. Meanwhile your neighbour gets hit by a bus, and dies. Goes to hell forever. You have to live with the knowledge you could have told him, you might have got through to him, but you let that opportunity slip for a reasonably good excuse. Your neighbour is now going to spend one hundred years roasting in hell, no, one thousand years roasting in hell, no, one million… no, forever, in eternal pain and torment because of your decision that Saturday.
Furthermore, you are going to have to answer to God for not speaking to the neighbour that Saturday, on the feeble defense of watching your son play football. You traded a football match for your neighbours’ eternity in hell. And you think you are going to enjoy Heaven, with that trip hanging on your shoulder. Just remember, if you take Jesus’ parable of Lazarus literally, while you are sitting in Heaven, you can actually see Hell, and the torment the residents are enduring. You will see your neighbour there. You will be daily reminded of your wrong decision.
The ramifications of holding a consistent belief in condemnation to the flames are awesome. Think them through. There is no way you could live with these details. Think of someone you witnessed to badly, and turned them off. And it really was your fault. You blundered in, and messed up. So they die and go to hell because of your fault, your inadequacy in presenting the gospel.
Often people offer this argument, “if everybody is saved by the grace of God, then why become a believer? What is the point?”
This is exactly the issue Paul had to write about in Romans chapter six. In the previous chapter, Romans chapter five, Paul waxes eloquent about all men being saved. Spends a lot of time towards the close of the fifth chapter talking about how one mans sin introduced death, the act of dying, for all men. Then goes on to say how God’s free gift brings life to all men. Evangelical protestants tend to split the ‘all’s’. On one hand they agree with the ‘all’ of dying. All means everyone there. But on the other hand they say Paul doesn’t mean all men receive life – oh no, he means just those that acknowledge Jesus in this life. The second ‘all’ doesn’t mean all.
Well, Paul expects his readers to ask that question above, i.e. ‘what is the point of becoming a believer?’ and he starts chapter six with the very words “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may increase?” Then he proceeds to answer that question. But again I won’t here. Read it yourself.
If you are a new believer, you might not have encountered the threat of hell that much. It is not Religiously Correct (RC) to talk about it today. Today’s Pastors go for evasion. They say, ‘oh that’s God’s business’. Or, ‘I don’t preach hell’. They soft pedal it. But if you push one hard enough, he will tell you yes, non-believers are going to hell.
There are further reasons why the Pastors can’t drop the threat. Having hell there is a great for social control, for keeping the churchgoers in fear, keeping them nice and moral, lest awful things happen to them. It is the backdrop to so much preaching about Christian living, but just sugar coated these days. We hear so much about keeping our spiritual lives clean, of holiness in case God deserts us. Hell doesn’t get mentioned, but it is there behind the scenes.
Us Christians, we even turn it into the message of good news. The other day I saw a guy on a roundabout with a printed jerkin on. Preaching and haranguing the passing traffic. The front of his shirt read ‘Hell is for real.’ And the back something like ‘Turn and repent.’
I sat in my car awhile watching him, reflecting how this was how our church society presents the message of Good News. Good grief. I told someone else about it. They commiserated with me, but had to stick to the fact that ultimately, the haranguer was telling the correct message.
Time for a quote. Here is a goodie, this time from a Reverent.
“The single most important cause for the Western World’s great defection from Christ has been the church’s teaching of a literal hell. For if we examine the last three centuries of Western history, we can see very clearly how the central atheistic figures of this period were turned away from Christianity basically because of the teaching of hell. And by now we can also see far more clearly the nihilistic and catastrophic results of this atheism. For example, from people like Nietzsche and Wagner we have seen the fruits of Hitler and the entire Nazi period. And what was the teaching of Christianity that turned Protestant Nietzsche and Catholic Wagner against Christianity? A literal hell.From people like Feuerbach, Marx, and Lenin, we have seen the fruits of people like Stalin and Mao and the misery of Communism throughout the world. And what was the “Christian” teaching which more than any other caused Feuerbach, Marx and Lenin to see Christianity as an “opiate”? The fact that Christians preoccupied with getting to heaven and avoiding hell were willing to turn their backs on the body politic and let it go to here-and-now hell–the only real hell there is. And why did Freud debunk religion in general and Christianity in particular as “illusion”? Again, it’s a matter of historical record. Freud had a Christian governess who terrified him with threats of hellfire when he was barely old enough to talk. Therefore Freud couldn’t wait to fashion an interpretation of human life that would completely eliminate the need for religion and its terrifying denials of the human body.”
Here is one final thing to bring up in the discussion. It is that Christians don’t want to believe universal salvation. Non-Christians will readily consider it. Now you will say that is because non-Christians have an agenda, to avoid a confrontation with Jesus. You might also be right in many circumstances. If there is an agenda on one side however, there may also be one on the other. Christians might not want God to forgive everyone because it means their religious activities were done in vain. There was no need to engage in those boring church renovation works, sing endless songs, print off church newsletters and vacuum the vestry.
I would have expected believers, who claim they want to love more, to leap at the possibility that our God of love was actually gathering in every living human being to himself. At the very least I would have expected they would investigate the option. But they won’t even look, won’t even examine the scriptures in the main.
Now I don’t expect for a minute this article will persuade anyone in Christendom to change their views on this topic. The ramifications of seeing the Good News of Jesus as simply that, simply a message of life for all men, of life at some stage, of the overpowering encountering of the majestic and irresistible love of God either now or at some future time, are too broad. It challenges too much that Christians have learned. It is far easier to retreat in Churchdom, into the fold of the blessed, the saved, and to hold the fort until Jesus comes again.
But please don’t tell me the Bible teaches non-Christians go to hell.
No, I’ve changed my mind. Tell me, face to face, with a Bible between us, and some time to discuss it.
Rev Robert Short, U.S. Catholic published by Claretian Publications
I have some good news and some bad news for you, my friend.
The good news is that there is no hell (I mean hellfire and torture). That is man’s invention, not God’s! The bad news (for some) is that there is no such thing as “universal salvation”.
On the first point, it is a misconception that God (who is described as “love” in the Bible), burns people for their sins. The Bible repeatedly shows that “the wages sin pays is death”, not everlasting burning!. To prove this, from the Bible, look at at Genesis 2.17. Does Adam face burning for rejecting his creator? No! he faces death. Now look at Jeremiah 7.1. How does God feel about people being burned? He hates it! The churches developed hellfire as a mechanism to keep the faithfull obedient to the church. It is offensive to God and has no place in Christianity.
I have read the scriptures you quote and I understand why you think the way you do but, you have misunderstood their meaning. God wants all people to be saved and to live forever but, being a realist, he knows that this will not happen because, as Jesus explained, “most will not listen”. So where does this leave God? Jesus prophecied that “this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come”. Peter informs us that “God does not desire any to be destroyed but desires that all attain to repentance”. However, “God is not one to be mocked” for “whatever a man is sowing, he shall reap”. For example, if my neighbour insists on molesting children or stealing from others, or pushing drugs, should he be allowed to go on living when God replenishes the earth and gives it to the “meek”?
The short answer, from the Bible is found at Acts 2.21 where Peter tells us that “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah (or Yahweh), shall be saved”. To call on the name of God is to know and respect that name and to act in accordance with his standards. God is not a modern alternative lifestyle guru who tolerates anything. He says ” I am the same today as yeaterday”.
Most religions teach that “all paths lead to God” but God doesn’t teach that! When he says that “all knees shall bend before him” (Jesus), he means that, all governements will have to move aside for his son’s reign, whether they like it or not! I would be happy to discuss this further with you, if you wish. I am at jillysteve@hotmail.com.
Just one question Steve. I couldnt quite see what happens to the unsaved in your post. What happens to them?
Love your website. I am recently dechurched and it’s the best thing that could have happened because I now know what freedom in Christ means. I have felt very let down by the church and found no support at all. The church is full of cliques, gossipers and hypocrites. As long as you keep close to God I believe you can carry on a good relationship with him, or even draw closer to him without all the confusion and distraction. Church nearly destroyed by relationship with God, so that is why I got away.
Brilliant!
Hallelujah!
Thank you so much for this wonderful piece of writing. Everything I believe. I didn’t realise there were other people who believed just the same as I do. Well, I should say we, because my sister feels just the same way too. I was crying as I read this. At last another person who truly values God as he really is. Sadly, it’s we humans who put limitations on God. No wonder he made man last of all, because he knew man would have been looking over His shoulder saying, ‘Oh no, you can’t do that …’
And why be a believer? Well I always remember when we bought our two guinea pigs from the pet shop. As the assistant leaned down and grabbed the two we had chosen, I thought the other poor piggies were probably crying and bewailing the fact that ‘Petal’ and ‘Plum’ had disappeared forever. That huge hand must have been the moment of doom to them all. If they’d realised that their two buddies were to be loved and well fed for the next eight years, they’d have all wanted to be taken and not been terrified every time that hand reached into the cage!
I celebrate, with you, the fact that God loves all his children, whether they know Him or not.
Rosemary xx
Hello, friends.
I agree with 2 points throughout this entire post, but the rest is, respectfully, off base.
1st: I agree that it is sometimes necessary to “dechurch” in order to avoid hypocrites, false teachers, and several other bad influences to your faith. Some churches, sadly, have strayed from the Gospel and turned instead to teachings like this and others that go against the Gospel. However, being a partaking member in the body of believers, or church, is imperative in order to fully develop your relationship with God. Solitude in the faith isn’t wrong and I myself turn to solitude quite often, but we must maintain a close relationship with our fellow believers, so that we can exhort, rebuke, and encourage each other. There are those weak in the faith and those strong. It is up to the strong to prop up the weak and help them through their problems while also learning from the weak. Please, Angie, reconsider your decision to “dechurch” and try to find a welcoming church that relates to you and that you can trust. Your brothers & sisters, if they are true to the faith, shall delight to see you attend.
2nd: I fully agree with the statement, “God loves all his children, whether they know Him or not.”. However, does that mean that he will reward those who betray his love and mercy for sin? Think of your childhood. When you stole from the cookie jar or did something naughty in school, did your parents pat you on the back and send you to your friends house or give you a gift? Hopefully not. Most parents, that have been risen right and understand the concept of punishment for wrongdoing, would have punished you with a spanking, time out, or at least grounded you. Same with our law enforcement. If you murder a woman and her child while they sleep and are caught on camera doing so, would the Judge simply allow you to go free? Hopefully not either. Morals alone should tell you that such an act should not go without equal punishment. Don’t dare present the argument, “Well, it is not our decision to decide between life and death for a fellow human being, even if they have committed such a violent act.” Okay, well, let’s pretend your children, or best friend if you lack children, have just been brutally murdered. Would you defend the criminal at trial and suggest he be let go or would you perhaps, suggest lethal injection or something of the sort? You can argue, but I know that in that circumstance any NORMAL and morally correct human being would desire equal punishment for the criminal. When God gave us the 10 commandments through Moses, he meant them. Why else would the SUPREME being waste his time providing for us mere humans? He loves us, yes, but that doesn’t grant us immunity to the punishment for disobeying his commands. I honestly don’t think his rules are even slightly unfair. He gave us this life on HIS wonderful Earth and even though Adam and Eve ruined the original gift from God by sin, he forgave us through the offering of his son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. I do believe he has earned his right to punish us through these actions, since he did, in fact, CREATE US. However, if you few do believe that hell is simply a myth created to scare us into righteousness, then please… continue doing so, but do take the time to study more in depth, because at this point I can see that you lack the ability to read more than ONE verse at a time.
I do not intend to offend anyone with my comments, but this is indeed, the RATIONAL and SCRIPTURAL truth. I appeal to your morals and common faith in Jesus Christ to further your study and correct yourself before you lead others astray into this nonsense that HELL doesn’t exist.
You’ll find a few verses supporting hell below..
With love.
Matthew 24:48-51
Luke 3:17
Luke 16:19-31
Please, contact me if you have questions.
righthand.ts@gmail.com
I forgot to add:
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS, the son of GOD, came down form heaven, sacrificed himself on the cross for your sins, rose on the third day, and is coming back for those who believe this, then YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Regardless of your sin, but your heart motive MUST be in righteousness.
God bless you.
If God punishes us equally in return, then I guess you are suggesting an eternal hell is a bit of an extreme response. Maybe a human lifetime of hell, is that what you are suggesting?
Interesting. Jesus himself, the founder of our faith, was asked by a rich young ruler what he must do to inherit eternal life. And Jesus answer didnt look like yours. Jesus advised him to obey the commandments and sell all he had.
Hey, I dont expect you to take this reply seriously. If you start to look at those and other verses honestly, it will open a huge can or worms in your life. So I am happy for you to believe what you do. The challenge for you is to accept that others might think differently. There are many mansions in our Fathers house.
Steve, First, Much of what you write indeed appeals to those of us whose “church community” seems to be satisfied, or perhaps unwilling to pursue additional insight into many topics such as escatology, worship, hell, salvation, the kingdom, trinity, etc. I truly believe it takes much effort, and one’s willingness to look at our “paradigms”. And with effort, this requires sacrifice, and much time. In our willingness to look at our “paradigms” this is even more difficult for us to confront once we devote the time and learn a little something new. But what I’ve found personally, in being honest with myself,is… For the most part what I felt I knew, was what was told me, not what I personally discovered in the above topics I alluded to over these last two years.
Also, in truly being honest with myself, taking the course of “least resistance” as most do, as did I, is so very detrimental to the renewing of our minds in regard to our Lord’s teachings, and Yahweh’s wisdom!
Let’s not “throw out the baby with the bath water”, for there is one God, salvation and the “atonement for ’sins” is squarely centered at the “Cross”, and “eternal life” life immortal provided and exists only thru our Lord Jesus Christ, and the kingdom exists within our hearts, for the spirit is the new temple, where God now dwells with us… but let’s replenish the “bath water” occasionally, and discover some new insights, which do not jeprodize our salvation, but will allow us to “overcome the world”, as Jesus said and allow us to live as “priests”, and “heirs of the kingdom”, spiritual Israel, for the “gates of hell will never prevail against it”.
Now, as for “hell”, and this discussion, I agree with you and Trevor…hell does not mean “eternal conscious torment”. It’s unfortunate the four words…hades, shoel, gahenna, tatarus, were all translated into our english word “hell”, and the english definition we subscribe it, as again, “told to us”!
Soloman, and Job both referred to when one physically dies, as they understood the physical body returns to where it came, the dust of the earth, and the spirit returns to God, who gave it, and they knew nothing about the spirit being “immortal”, for they were on the other side of the “cross”, and Christ, and he only provides “immortality”.
With that said, in discussing either “eternal conscious torment”, or “universal salvation” and believing in either, the spirit which returns to God, has to be “immortal” to either be eternally punished, or provided the opportunity to put on Christ after this physically life!
So, the question is…when God breathed in the Spirit of man…was it immortal?
So, as I see it, and I am indeed no scholar, the spirit has to be immortal to eventually put on “Christ”, but certainly does not need to be immortal to just simply fail to exist any longer…and simply just return to God who gave it.
Months and months ago, I was afraid to even open up and read information on this subject, for fear of learning something contrary to what I “was told”…that being “eternal conscious torment”. And now “Universal Salvation”…well, I hope so, but at present not conformatable enough in teaching this…So, let me continue to study!
In closing, to you Steve, and Trevor, I would welcome discussing at further length this issue, and listening openly to what you each can share.
Lastly, I know two things for certain….there is a God, and I am not Him!
thanks to all. -Bob-
I agree with you that hell is probably not some fire filled place where people burn for eternity. But it is hard to ignore things like the separation that happens a the Great White Throne Judgement based on decisions made in this life and Jesus’ own words that those who have not believed are condemned already (John 3:18). One cannot read and understand scripture without seeing that those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Lord in this life will not spend eternity with Him.
I find it interesting that you used an example of someone being in hell in your explanation of why no one will go there. And yes, I do take Christ’s words literally.
What did Peter mean when he said that it was not God’s will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance? What is meant by perish?
Many, many other questions come to mind as you already know but I will stop there.
I suggest all to go and read the writings of dr. ernest l martin at askelm.com
cheers
George MacDonald also subscribed to universal salvation. His Unspoken Sermons are amazing. C.S. Lewis referred to him as his theological master in his An Anthology preface, and made him the teaching character in Great Divorce.
Also, for a very thorough, scholarly defense of universal salvation, I’d point you to Dr. Richard Beck, at Experimental Theology Blog. http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2009/12/universalism-summary-defense.html
In short, he makes the point that Jesus took the power of hell and death away, and so if we’re still “on the clock” to believe “in time”, then death is still running the show, and hasn’t been defeated.
This is why so many are turned off of Christ. His believers cannot agree with His Truth.
IF we isolate scriptures, we can make any doctrine we want. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Although Jesus Crrist died for the whole world, salvation is only for those who receive Christ.ROMANS 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Your teachings may bring comfort to some,but it is certainly not the complete teaching of the bible.REVELATION 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What about the scripture that names all the types of people that will end up in hell?
Revelation 21:8 “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”
Plain as day.
As for the people who believed this without studying and PRAYING (most importantly)…
Ephesians 4:14 “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”
(not saying that this person was trying to intentionally deceive…)
hmmmmmmm. One Bible so many variant doctrines. Just goes to show what happens when man handles it with out the respect due to it, being the Word of God. Which is what you did to come up with an idea such as yours. You can make the Bible say any thing if you start with an idea, then build verses around it. Of course as you do this you have to tell people what the verse is really saying.